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Posts: 6723
Member Since: 03/27/10
Jun 21 11 3:08 PM
GHSTHA wrote:ryld wrote:GHSTHA wrote:Papal infallibility is a doctrine of demons. Scripture is perfectly clear on that matter;Yes it is clear on this. Here is what the Lord said on the matter.Matthew 16:19 - I will give you the keys of the kingdom of Heaven: whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heavenHm...there doesn't seem to be any reference to any "pope", to any future popes, in that. Not only was Peter not a pope, but that was not speaking of any succession. Not any indication at all of any succession. To understand the role of St. Peter you have to go back and look at Isaiah 22. The Lord was quoting from this chapter when He spoke to Peter as He did. The role of a king's chamberlain, in the O.T., was dynastic. This is the same case as with St. Peter.
ryld wrote:GHSTHA wrote:Papal infallibility is a doctrine of demons. Scripture is perfectly clear on that matter;Yes it is clear on this. Here is what the Lord said on the matter.Matthew 16:19 - I will give you the keys of the kingdom of Heaven: whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heavenHm...there doesn't seem to be any reference to any "pope", to any future popes, in that. Not only was Peter not a pope, but that was not speaking of any succession. Not any indication at all of any succession.
GHSTHA wrote:Papal infallibility is a doctrine of demons. Scripture is perfectly clear on that matter;Yes it is clear on this. Here is what the Lord said on the matter.Matthew 16:19 - I will give you the keys of the kingdom of Heaven: whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven
Papal infallibility is a doctrine of demons. Scripture is perfectly clear on that matter;
Posts: 1636
Member Since: 08/15/07
Jun 21 11 3:11 PM
Sapling
We weren't talking about "worship".
We were talking about your church's caretakership of these items. It was not "art", Tony.
It was for the purpose of worship for those who believed in Venus.
It is an idol, not "art". It is artist, but it is an artistic idol.
Jun 21 11 3:14 PM
ryld wrote:GHSTHA wrote:ryld wrote:GHSTHA wrote:Papal infallibility is a doctrine of demons. Scripture is perfectly clear on that matter;Yes it is clear on this. Here is what the Lord said on the matter.Matthew 16:19 - I will give you the keys of the kingdom of Heaven: whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heavenHm...there doesn't seem to be any reference to any "pope", to any future popes, in that. Not only was Peter not a pope, but that was not speaking of any succession. Not any indication at all of any succession. To understand the role of St. Peter you have to go back and look at Isaiah 22. The Lord was quoting from this chapter when He spoke to Peter as He did. The role of a king's chamberlain, in the O.T., was dynastic. This is the same case as with St. Peter. Nice try, Tony. But we're talking about the verse in Matthew, which gives not one iota of "succession". As for Is. 22, that is talking about Jesus Christ--not the popes. Jesus Christ has the Key of David, which are not the two keys of which Jesus Christ was speaking in Matthew. The Key of David is still in His possession ever since He inherited it, as evidenced in Rev. That "Key" is the Scepter by which He rules. No one gets that Key.
BIBLE COMMENTARY ON "KEYS" OF ISAIAH 22:22 William F. Albright and C.S. Mann are quite certain when they comment on Matthew 16:19 -- "Isaiah 22:15ff undoubtedly lies behind this saying. The keys are the symbol of authority, and Roland de Vaux [Ancient Israel, tr. by John McHugh, NY: McGraw-Hill, 1961] rightly sees here the same authority as that vested in the vizier, the master of the house, the chamberlain, of the royal household in ancient Israel. Eliakim is described as having the same authority in Isaiah; it was Hilkiah's position until he was ousted, and Jotham as regent is also described as 'over the household' [2 Kings 15:5]....It is of considerable importance that in other contexts, when the disciplinary affairs of the community are being discussed [cf. Matt 18:18; John 20:23] the symbol of the keys is absent, since the sayings apply in those instances to a wider circle....The role of Peter as steward of the Kingdom is further explained as being the exercise of administrative authority, as was the case of the OT chamberlain who held the 'keys.' The clauses 'on earth,' 'in heaven', have reference to the permanent character of the steward's work." (Albright/Mann, The Anchor Bible: Matthew, page 196-197) The Evangelical New Bible Commentary states on Isaiah 22 -- "Eliakim stands in strong contrast to Shebna, over whom he seems to have been promoted when they reappear in 36:3...Godward he is called my servant (20)...manward he will be a father to his community (21)...The key...of David (22) comes in this context of accountability. A key was a substantial object, tucked in the girdle or slung over the shoulder; but the opening words of v. 22...emphasize the God-given responsibility that went with it, to be used in the king's interests. The 'shutting' and 'opening' means the power to make decisions which no one under the king could override. This is the background of the commission to Peter (cf. Mt 16:19) and to the church (cf. Mt 18:18).... Ultimate authority, however, is claimed, in these terms, for Christ himself (cf. Rev 3:7-." (NBC page 647) The Evangelical NIV Study Bible notes on Isaiah 22 -- on verse 15: "...in charge of the palace. A position second only to the king..."; on verse 22: "...key to the house of David. The authority delegated to him by the king, who belongs to David's dynasty -- perhaps controlling entrance into the royal palace. Cf. the 'keys of the kingdom' given to Peter (Mt 16:19) ." The Lutheran/Catholic ecumenical study Peter in the New Testament comments -- "One suggestion is that the verse [Matt 16:19] is evocative of Isa 22:15-25 where Shebna, prime minister of King Hezekiah of Judah, is deposed and replaced by Eliakim on whose shoulder God places 'the key of David; he shall open...and he shall shut.' The power of the key of the Davidic kingdom is the power to open and to shut, i.e., the prime minister's power to allow or refuse entrance to the palace, which involves access to the king. If this were the background of Matthew's 'keys of the kingdom,' then Peter might be being portrayed as a type of prime minister in the kingdom that Jesus has come to proclaim, and the power of binding and loosing would be a specification of the broader power of allowing or refusing entrance into the kingdom....The prime minister, more literally 'major-domo,' was the man called in Hebrew 'the one who is over the house,' a term borrowed from the Egyptian designation of the chief palace functionary." (Brown, Reumann, et al page 96-97, and footnote referring to Roland DeVaux Ancient Israel) The Brethren/Mennonite commentary by Richard B. Gardner -- "The image of the keys likely comes from an oracle in Isaiah, which speaks of the installation of a new majordomo or steward in Hezekiah's palace." (Gardner, page 248) Evangelical scholar F.F. Bruce comments -- "And what about the 'keys of the kingdom' ? The keys of a royal or noble establishment were entrusted to the chief steward or majordomo; he carried them on his shoulder in earlier times, and there they served as a badge of the authority entrusted to him. About 700 B.C. an oracle from God announced that this authority in the royal palace in Jerusalem was to be conferred on a man called Eliakim ....(Isaiah 22:22). So in the new community which Jesus was about to build, Peter would be, so to speak, chief steward." (Bruce, The Hard Sayings of Jesus [Intervarsity Press, 1983], 143-144, as cited in Butler/Dahlgren/Hess, page 41) Catholic Evangelical convert and Bible teacher Stephen Ray -- "Jesus is intentionally drawing attention to the context of Isaiah's prophecy -- a new steward is being placed over the kingdom of Judah -- as the backdrop for his current appointment of Peter as steward over his kingdom. Jesus ascends the throne of David as the heir and successor of the kings of Israel and Judah, and he too, according to custom and legal precedent, appoints a royal steward over his kingdom. Notice the words used to describe the steward: he has an 'office'; he is 'over the household [vizier]'; 'authority' is committed into his hand; he shall be a 'father' to the people of God; he is given the 'keys' of authority; he has the unquestioned supremacy to open and shut so that no one can oppose him; he is fastened firmly as a peg; he will 'become a throne of honor to his father's house'; and on him will hang the weight of everything in the king's house....The parallels between Peter and Eliakim are striking. The physical kingdom of Israel has been superseded by the spiritual kingdom of God. The office of steward in the old economy is now superseded by the Petrine office with the delegation and handing on of the keys. The office of steward was successive, and so is the Petrine office in the new kingdom." (Stephen K. Ray, Upon This Rock [Ignatius Press, 1999] from "Appendix B: An Old Testament Basis for the Primacy and Succession of St. Peter," page 273-4) CONCLUSION ON "KEYS" OF ISAIAH 22 AS PARALLEL TO MATTHEW 16 Thus the prime minister or chief steward of the house of David had successors. He is described as being "over the household" and "in charge of the palace" (Isa 22:15; 36:3; 1 Kings 4:6; 18:3; 2 Kings 10:5; 15:5; 18:18); as for his authority "what he shall open, no one shall shut...and what he shall shut, no one shall open" (Isa 22:22; Matt 16:19; Rev 3:7). The prime minister had an incredible amount of authority, what can only be called a supreme or plenary authority beside that of the King. This is the language of the "keys," "binding," and "loosing" that Jesus was using in Matthew 16:19. Peter was given the "keys" just as the prime minister had the "key to the house of David" (Isa 22:22). And this is important in seeing the parallel to Matthew 16:19 -- the prime minister was an office of dynastic succession (Isa 22:19,22). In other words, when the prime minister or chief steward died, another one would be selected to fill the office and take his place. Jesus recognizes the office of prime minister or chief steward ("manager" NIV) in his parables, as one who has been placed in charge and set over the household (Matt 24:45ff; 20:8; Luke 12:42; 16:1ff; cf. Gen 41:40ff; 43:19; 44:4; 45:8ff). Just as the prime minister or chief steward (other terms include major domo, grand vizier, royal chamberlain, or palace administrator) had the "keys" and the other ministers did not, the Lord made Peter the prime minister in His visible Church, making him the visible head of the apostles over the Church, giving him the "keys of the kingdom" with a special and unique authority in Matthew 16:18-19. The office of prime minister was one of dynastic succession, and this is the language Jesus borrows from Isaiah 22:15ff. While Protestant scholars (such as those I have cited) typically would try to deny the full Catholic conclusions from the passage, it is clear St. Peter did have successors in the Bishops of Rome. That is how the Catholic Church of the earliest centuries came to understand the ongoing ministry and authority of Peter in the Church (the Bishop of Rome was the "Chair [or See] of Peter" or simply "the Apostolic See"). The historical evidence for the unique primacy of Peter and the Bishop of Rome will be discussed next.
BIBLE COMMENTARY ON "KEYS" OF ISAIAH 22:22
William F. Albright and C.S. Mann are quite certain when they comment on Matthew 16:19 --
"Isaiah 22:15ff undoubtedly lies behind this saying. The keys are the symbol of authority, and Roland de Vaux [Ancient Israel, tr. by John McHugh, NY: McGraw-Hill, 1961] rightly sees here the same authority as that vested in the vizier, the master of the house, the chamberlain, of the royal household in ancient Israel. Eliakim is described as having the same authority in Isaiah; it was Hilkiah's position until he was ousted, and Jotham as regent is also described as 'over the household' [2 Kings 15:5]....It is of considerable importance that in other contexts, when the disciplinary affairs of the community are being discussed [cf. Matt 18:18; John 20:23] the symbol of the keys is absent, since the sayings apply in those instances to a wider circle....The role of Peter as steward of the Kingdom is further explained as being the exercise of administrative authority, as was the case of the OT chamberlain who held the 'keys.' The clauses 'on earth,' 'in heaven', have reference to the permanent character of the steward's work." (Albright/Mann, The Anchor Bible: Matthew, page 196-197)
The Evangelical New Bible Commentary states on Isaiah 22 --
"Eliakim stands in strong contrast to Shebna, over whom he seems to have been promoted when they reappear in 36:3...Godward he is called my servant (20)...manward he will be a father to his community (21)...The key...of David (22) comes in this context of accountability. A key was a substantial object, tucked in the girdle or slung over the shoulder; but the opening words of v. 22...emphasize the God-given responsibility that went with it, to be used in the king's interests. The 'shutting' and 'opening' means the power to make decisions which no one under the king could override. This is the background of the commission to Peter (cf. Mt 16:19) and to the church (cf. Mt 18:18).... Ultimate authority, however, is claimed, in these terms, for Christ himself (cf. Rev 3:7-." (NBC page 647)
The Evangelical NIV Study Bible notes on Isaiah 22 --
on verse 15: "...in charge of the palace. A position second only to the king..."; on verse 22: "...key to the house of David. The authority delegated to him by the king, who belongs to David's dynasty -- perhaps controlling entrance into the royal palace. Cf. the 'keys of the kingdom' given to Peter (Mt 16:19) ."
The Lutheran/Catholic ecumenical study Peter in the New Testament comments --
"One suggestion is that the verse [Matt 16:19] is evocative of Isa 22:15-25 where Shebna, prime minister of King Hezekiah of Judah, is deposed and replaced by Eliakim on whose shoulder God places 'the key of David; he shall open...and he shall shut.' The power of the key of the Davidic kingdom is the power to open and to shut, i.e., the prime minister's power to allow or refuse entrance to the palace, which involves access to the king. If this were the background of Matthew's 'keys of the kingdom,' then Peter might be being portrayed as a type of prime minister in the kingdom that Jesus has come to proclaim, and the power of binding and loosing would be a specification of the broader power of allowing or refusing entrance into the kingdom....The prime minister, more literally 'major-domo,' was the man called in Hebrew 'the one who is over the house,' a term borrowed from the Egyptian designation of the chief palace functionary." (Brown, Reumann, et al page 96-97, and footnote referring to Roland DeVaux Ancient Israel)
The Brethren/Mennonite commentary by Richard B. Gardner --
"The image of the keys likely comes from an oracle in Isaiah, which speaks of the installation of a new majordomo or steward in Hezekiah's palace." (Gardner, page 248)
Evangelical scholar F.F. Bruce comments --
"And what about the 'keys of the kingdom' ? The keys of a royal or noble establishment were entrusted to the chief steward or majordomo; he carried them on his shoulder in earlier times, and there they served as a badge of the authority entrusted to him. About 700 B.C. an oracle from God announced that this authority in the royal palace in Jerusalem was to be conferred on a man called Eliakim ....(Isaiah 22:22). So in the new community which Jesus was about to build, Peter would be, so to speak, chief steward." (Bruce, The Hard Sayings of Jesus [Intervarsity Press, 1983], 143-144, as cited in Butler/Dahlgren/Hess, page 41)
Catholic Evangelical convert and Bible teacher Stephen Ray --
"Jesus is intentionally drawing attention to the context of Isaiah's prophecy -- a new steward is being placed over the kingdom of Judah -- as the backdrop for his current appointment of Peter as steward over his kingdom. Jesus ascends the throne of David as the heir and successor of the kings of Israel and Judah, and he too, according to custom and legal precedent, appoints a royal steward over his kingdom. Notice the words used to describe the steward: he has an 'office'; he is 'over the household [vizier]'; 'authority' is committed into his hand; he shall be a 'father' to the people of God; he is given the 'keys' of authority; he has the unquestioned supremacy to open and shut so that no one can oppose him; he is fastened firmly as a peg; he will 'become a throne of honor to his father's house'; and on him will hang the weight of everything in the king's house....The parallels between Peter and Eliakim are striking. The physical kingdom of Israel has been superseded by the spiritual kingdom of God. The office of steward in the old economy is now superseded by the Petrine office with the delegation and handing on of the keys. The office of steward was successive, and so is the Petrine office in the new kingdom." (Stephen K. Ray, Upon This Rock [Ignatius Press, 1999] from "Appendix B: An Old Testament Basis for the Primacy and Succession of St. Peter," page 273-4)
CONCLUSION ON "KEYS" OF ISAIAH 22 AS PARALLEL TO MATTHEW 16
Thus the prime minister or chief steward of the house of David had successors. He is described as being "over the household" and "in charge of the palace" (Isa 22:15; 36:3; 1 Kings 4:6; 18:3; 2 Kings 10:5; 15:5; 18:18); as for his authority "what he shall open, no one shall shut...and what he shall shut, no one shall open" (Isa 22:22; Matt 16:19; Rev 3:7). The prime minister had an incredible amount of authority, what can only be called a supreme or plenary authority beside that of the King. This is the language of the "keys," "binding," and "loosing" that Jesus was using in Matthew 16:19. Peter was given the "keys" just as the prime minister had the "key to the house of David" (Isa 22:22). And this is important in seeing the parallel to Matthew 16:19 -- the prime minister was an office of dynastic succession (Isa 22:19,22). In other words, when the prime minister or chief steward died, another one would be selected to fill the office and take his place. Jesus recognizes the office of prime minister or chief steward ("manager" NIV) in his parables, as one who has been placed in charge and set over the household (Matt 24:45ff; 20:8; Luke 12:42; 16:1ff; cf. Gen 41:40ff; 43:19; 44:4; 45:8ff).
Just as the prime minister or chief steward (other terms include major domo, grand vizier, royal chamberlain, or palace administrator) had the "keys" and the other ministers did not, the Lord made Peter the prime minister in His visible Church, making him the visible head of the apostles over the Church, giving him the "keys of the kingdom" with a special and unique authority in Matthew 16:18-19. The office of prime minister was one of dynastic succession, and this is the language Jesus borrows from Isaiah 22:15ff. While Protestant scholars (such as those I have cited) typically would try to deny the full Catholic conclusions from the passage, it is clear St. Peter did have successors in the Bishops of Rome. That is how the Catholic Church of the earliest centuries came to understand the ongoing ministry and authority of Peter in the Church (the Bishop of Rome was the "Chair [or See] of Peter" or simply "the Apostolic See"). The historical evidence for the unique primacy of Peter and the Bishop of Rome will be discussed next.
Jun 21 11 3:15 PM
Jun 21 11 3:20 PM
Jun 21 11 3:22 PM
ryld wrote:TONY: ryld wrote, We weren't talking about "worship". In your statement you said, "pagan idol." Idols were worshiped in paganism. RESPONSE: But the subject of our little tete-a-tete was your church's caretakership of these items--not what the ancient pagans did with them. We were talking about your church's caretakership of these items. It was not "art", Tony. TONY: They viewed it both as an idol and as a work of art. RESPONSE: They only wanted the best for their queen of heaven, Tony, so it had to be artistic. It was for the purpose of worship for those who believed in Venus. TONY: So are we now talking about "worship"? RESPONSE: Nice try, Tony. The question is why would a church be a caretaker of idols which ancients worshiped. TONY: Is that not a contradiction of your entire premise on this particular post? RESPONSE: Try to keep up, Tony. Main subject: your church's caretakership what is being taken care of: idols
Jun 21 11 3:24 PM
Jun 21 11 3:25 PM
ryld wrote:Let's take a look at what Scripture says about the single key: 7And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; Rev. 3 Which was said, decades after Peter already gave up the ghost and supposedly passed "two" keys on to the "successor". The key of David is not the same as the keys of the Kingdom. One key--David's, now Christ's because He is the Heir of David. Two keys, those given to all who are to repent and believe the Gospel. The former is the Scepter by which Jesus Christ rules upon the throne of David. the other two are Conviction and Faith, given by the Holy Spirit and the Word, respectively. Also take note of how only Jesus Christ wields the Key of David, as no man can open or close what He shuts and opens. No man.
Jun 21 11 3:26 PM
GHSTHA wrote:ryld wrote:Let's take a look at what Scripture says about the single key: 7And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; Rev. 3 Which was said, decades after Peter already gave up the ghost and supposedly passed "two" keys on to the "successor". The key of David is not the same as the keys of the Kingdom. One key--David's, now Christ's because He is the Heir of David. Two keys, those given to all who are to repent and believe the Gospel. The former is the Scepter by which Jesus Christ rules upon the throne of David. the other two are Conviction and Faith, given by the Holy Spirit and the Word, respectively. Also take note of how only Jesus Christ wields the Key of David, as no man can open or close what He shuts and opens. No man. So where is the Scriptural connection between what the Lord said to St. Peter and the verse you quoted from Revelation?
Jun 21 11 3:27 PM
ryld wrote:Tony, I never discussed whether or not your church worships them. The discussion is your church's claim of their being those idols' caretaker.
Jun 21 11 3:28 PM
ryld wrote:GHSTHA wrote:ryld wrote:Let's take a look at what Scripture says about the single key: 7And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; Rev. 3 Which was said, decades after Peter already gave up the ghost and supposedly passed "two" keys on to the "successor". The key of David is not the same as the keys of the Kingdom. One key--David's, now Christ's because He is the Heir of David. Two keys, those given to all who are to repent and believe the Gospel. The former is the Scepter by which Jesus Christ rules upon the throne of David. the other two are Conviction and Faith, given by the Holy Spirit and the Word, respectively. Also take note of how only Jesus Christ wields the Key of David, as no man can open or close what He shuts and opens. No man. So where is the Scriptural connection between what the Lord said to St. Peter and the verse you quoted from Revelation?There isn't any, Tony. That's the point. Two different sets of keys. The keys given to Peter in that verse was not the Key of David.
Jun 21 11 3:36 PM
GHSTHA wrote:ryld wrote:Tony, I never discussed whether or not your church worships them. The discussion is your church's claim of their being those idols' caretaker.O.K. so why is it problematic that the Church claims to be a caretaker of these pieces of art?
17Therefore disputed he.......
And Paul called this idolatry:
22Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
23For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
Then he said:
Jun 21 11 3:46 PM
GHSTHA wrote:ryld wrote:GHSTHA wrote:ryld wrote:Let's take a look at what Scripture says about the single key: 7And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; Rev. 3 Which was said, decades after Peter already gave up the ghost and supposedly passed "two" keys on to the "successor". The key of David is not the same as the keys of the Kingdom. One key--David's, now Christ's because He is the Heir of David. Two keys, those given to all who are to repent and believe the Gospel. The former is the Scepter by which Jesus Christ rules upon the throne of David. the other two are Conviction and Faith, given by the Holy Spirit and the Word, respectively. Also take note of how only Jesus Christ wields the Key of David, as no man can open or close what He shuts and opens. No man. So where is the Scriptural connection between what the Lord said to St. Peter and the verse you quoted from Revelation?There isn't any, Tony. That's the point. Two different sets of keys. The keys given to Peter in that verse was not the Key of David. So what keys were they and do they convey authority?
Posts: 17181
Member Since: 12/03/06
Jun 22 11 8:56 AM
Tony wrote...1. There is no where that states that the Scriptures are "self-teaching."2. Please show us where it states that the Scriptures are "self-teaching."
Its there, as the golden thread that is found woven throughout the word of God. You just as a Catholic are not allowed to get under its authority seeing you follow another authority( ECF's), which you believe widens the authority of the word of God. Thats common knowledge that Catholics have chosen sola ecclesia as the authority that shapes the clay it is forming, turning things upside again and again as if God had no understanding of His own.
Again self teaching with the real presence of Christ as our teacher, is exactly the way our Faithful Creator, Christ, the one and only author and effector of absolute truth created the book of the law, the Bible. Because it is alive, as it teaches us we understand it has the authority as a discern-er of the thoughts and intents of our hearts, as it does it work of faith in us, we in effect can believe God as the result of His work in us.
The "law of faith" found within the Bible alone declares the living thoughts of God as a perfect, complete law which lacks nothing. And even as "it" (scripture our gospel) hath taught us , we shall abide in Him "the teacher" and not some familar spirit entity as some sort of "sub contractor" or "substitude teacher" to help out this needy god who you assume is worshipped by human hands as if he needed something . The law of faith, is faith comes by hearing and hearing comes by the Word of God. It does not get any clearer than that. Infallibility is a immutable attribute of God alone, we are to have no Pope as a god before Him and violate the first commandment in doing so. Scripture warms of of that manner of spirit that would seduce into believing we do need a man(any man) to teach us infallibly.
These things have I written unto you concerning them (from the "sola ecclesia" Cathoilic camp/sect) that seduce you.But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 1Jo 2:26
do believe that Christ is the ultimate Teacher. There is no doubt in any Catholics mind about that. The Lord did establish a teaching Church. Matthew 28:18-20 - Go Baptize and teach all nations ...(the Church's mission)
What they were to teach to all nations was to obey the word of God as the highest authority given unto men, by studying it and therefore seeking the approval of God, as the things of God, who teach other men where to find such commandments that point to God who teaches us through His word. And not to seek the approval of men as if they were the final authority.
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 2Ti 2:15
A true teaching church is one that teaches men the commandment of God such as the commandment in 2 Timothy 2:15,We seek His approval according to his commandments by rightly dividing His spiritual words of truth and even as it(that which we do rightly fully divide as it has taught us , we shall abide in him as the real presence of Christ who dwells in us does the teaching. Again to be taught of God is to be taught of God to be taught of men about God as the things of God is to be taught of men about God.as the things of men, Failure to distinguish the difference is a work of the antichrist who would have men believe there is no difference between the things of God and the things of men.
If we are to believe what you say then we have to admit that the Lord was incorrect in giving the commission for the Church to go a teach.
The commandment to teach the nations was in regard to following the commandments of God, within the book of the law; it was not in regard to trusting men as if they were God themselves. Christians are made aware of that wile of the devil. Clearly scripture, as a law that does judge the intents of our hearts, reveals another law that we are to call no man on earth teacher(master) in respect to them as having the immutable attribute of infallibility, for one is our teacher and guide, seeing it is impossible to serve two Masters, two Holy Fathers, two central authority of one church.
Mat 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
It does not go against the First Commandment because we do not claim that the Pope or any of the ECFs are god.
Well if they possess this immutable attribute of God which you say they do, you have in effect already decided to have the faith of Christ in respect to them and not Christ alone. Scripture declares that manner of faith is blasphemy, so yes you do claim they are gods we must have before our living God Christ, Jesus.
But you have never heard a any Catholic being accused of interpreting the Bible for themselves
We are made aware of that wile of the devil, who insists a man must teach you because the promises of Christ in regard to Him teaching us as our guide and comforter somehow or other, went astray and we another mediator to do that work.
So , as a Catholic you must have other gods; before our living God, Christ Jesus.I believe, the number of “workers with familiar spirits” or what Catholics call “patron spirit guides” today is in the thousands, as if one true God working through one Spirit, by one faith was not enough and the thousands could never be enough seeing the number of familiar spirits as a false cloud of witness to those who do violate the first commandment, is added almost daily in these end times.
Evangelicals/Fundamentalists always tell Catholics that they should interpret the Bible for themselves.
In saying this, Evangelicals/Fundamentalists make themselves the authority unto themselves. This is no where in the Scriptures.
Not really,they understand they do not have that authority of themselves, in saying study to show your approval unto God, they have in effect followed the commandment that teaches us to teach all nations on how any man can hear God through the hearing of His faith, as He teaches them all things.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
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Member Since: 07/01/10
Jun 22 11 9:30 AM
garee wrote So , as a Catholic you must have other gods; before our living God, Christ Jesus.
You have to be the most uninformed person on the net.
Jun 22 11 12:29 PM
garee wrote So , as a Catholic you must have other gods; before our living God, Christ Jesus. Had2 wrote......You have to be the most uninformed person on the net.
Had2 wrote......You have to be the most uninformed person on the net.
Scripturte informs us on what does counts in regard to violating the first commandmnet while the net does give a variity of veiws to include both yours and mine, but at the end of the day having the "faith of Christ" which is alone in regard to the real presence of His Spirit in us as that which works to teach us is not in rerspect to any man, not Peter, not this not Pope entity thingy not let alone the thousands upon thosands of men you call the ECf's.
Do you have any idea what the Catholic Church teaches about mortal sin?
Yes they vilolate the perfect law of God in regard to the one "wage of sin" by reducing the one wage which has not been replaced by another law as coming after a oral tradition of men, making the one law of God in regard to the one wage of sinn to no effect.Mar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Jun 22 11 3:56 PM
ryld wrote:GHSTHA wrote:ryld wrote:Tony, I never discussed whether or not your church worships them. The discussion is your church's claim of their being those idols' caretaker.O.K. so why is it problematic that the Church claims to be a caretaker of these pieces of art? Ok, Tony. Picture Paul or Peter or any other Apostle being the caretaker of those idols. Paul certainly didn't call them "art" in Athens. 16Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry. 17Therefore disputed he.......And Paul called this idolatry: 22Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. 23For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. Then he said:30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Acts 17Now "repent" means to "turn away". Paul was admonishing them to turn away from these idols. Whereas your church presents them in all their glory to the whole world who comes to see them.
Jun 22 11 4:12 PM
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