ForgotPassword?
Sign Up
Search this Topic:
Forum Jump
Posts: 607
Member Since: 12/27/05
Jun 12 08 4:41 AM
Invincibly Ignorant
Dr. Aviam is an adjunct professor and archaeologist in residence in the Department of Classics and Religion, Center for Judaic Studies, University of Rochester NY, and Director of the Institute for Gallilean Archaeology of the University of Rochester.
What can you say about the era in which the Church was supposedly built (3rd century)? Well, it was a time of transition. In some of my researches and article I was trying to show the ethnic and religion changes from Jewish to early Christians. Megiddo area was in the first and second century a Jewish community known as Kefar Otnai. Evidence for it can also be in the ritual baths (called miqve in Hebrew). In fact, the British, who built Megiddo prison in the first place, documented some of these miqvaot (as Teper discovered). This Christian structure seems to have been built in the transition between the end of the Jewish settlement and before the established Christianity, hence it is a remarkable evidence of the early Christian ere, of we know very little of. What about the mosaic itself? What makes it so special? The table mentioned is probably what is later called the Altar. We can see, like in a time machine, the earliest days of Christianity. The specific name of Jesus as god is also uncommon version, different from found in later Churches.
Well, it was a time of transition. In some of my researches and article I was trying to show the ethnic and religion changes from Jewish to early Christians. Megiddo area was in the first and second century a Jewish community known as Kefar Otnai. Evidence for it can also be in the ritual baths (called miqve in Hebrew). In fact, the British, who built Megiddo prison in the first place, documented some of these miqvaot (as Teper discovered). This Christian structure seems to have been built in the transition between the end of the Jewish settlement and before the established Christianity, hence it is a remarkable evidence of the early Christian ere, of we know very little of. What about the mosaic itself? What makes it so special? The table mentioned is probably what is later called the Altar. We can see, like in a time machine, the earliest days of Christianity. The specific name of Jesus as god is also uncommon version, different from found in later Churches.
Posts: 31797
Member Since: 10/11/05
Jun 12 08 4:48 AM
Grand Poopah
The table mentioned is probably what is later called the Altar. We can see, like in a time machine, the earliest days of Christianity.
Jun 12 08 4:56 AM
Researchers of Christianity argue about the origin of the Eucharist. Many of them think that the early Christians did not perform the Mass ceremony as it is preformed today. It is thought that they ate a communally meal. The early Christians were few, so perhaps it comes as no surprise that they could gather around a single table. This communally meal, in which bread and wine were served to the members sitting around the table, is considered the origin of the Mass ceremony. Later the table became the altar. This is the significance of the Megiddo prison finding which is considered to be one of the most ancient churches yet to be found. For the first time archeological evidence mentions a table and not an Altar to be used for the communion rite. This may be the origin of the rite, or a transition stage before the table has been transformed to an Altar. . . . . Again, the significance of the finding of the Megiddo prison is that for the first time there is an objective mention of a table and not an Altar, which sheds light on the origin of the Altar in Christianity. Gathered around the table, the early Christians sat and ate the communally meal, which may be the origin of the Communion ceremony. Archaeological evidence that sheds light on the origin of the Altar and the communion rite, found in a maximum security prison- well you've got yourself another episode of Indiana Jones.
Researchers of Christianity argue about the origin of the Eucharist. Many of them think that the early Christians did not perform the Mass ceremony as it is preformed today. It is thought that they ate a communally meal. The early Christians were few, so perhaps it comes as no surprise that they could gather around a single table. This communally meal, in which bread and wine were served to the members sitting around the table, is considered the origin of the Mass ceremony. Later the table became the altar. This is the significance of the Megiddo prison finding which is considered to be one of the most ancient churches yet to be found. For the first time archeological evidence mentions a table and not an Altar to be used for the communion rite. This may be the origin of the rite, or a transition stage before the table has been transformed to an Altar.
. . . .
Again, the significance of the finding of the Megiddo prison is that for the first time there is an objective mention of a table and not an Altar, which sheds light on the origin of the Altar in Christianity. Gathered around the table, the early Christians sat and ate the communally meal, which may be the origin of the Communion ceremony. Archaeological evidence that sheds light on the origin of the Altar and the communion rite, found in a maximum security prison- well you've got yourself another episode of Indiana Jones.
Jun 12 08 5:00 AM
Jun 12 08 5:26 AM
Jun 12 08 5:27 AM
When you research something try not to be bias.
Jun 12 08 5:44 AM
Jun 12 08 7:29 AM
Well Wendy how many place can you find that would say that The Early church didn't have a Mass like service? Be honest!
Jun 12 08 7:32 AM
JUSTIN MARTYR -- THE FIRST APOLOGY OF JUSTIN
CHAPTER LXV -- ADMINISTRATION OF THE SACRAMENTS.
But we, after we have thus washed him who has been convinced and has assented to our teaching, bring him to the place where those who are called brethren are assembled, in order that we may offer hearty prayers in common for ourselves and for the baptized [illuminated] person, and for all others in every place, that we may be counted worthy, now that we have learned the truth, by our works also to be found good citizens and keepers of the commandments, so that we may be saved with an everlasting salvation. Having ended the prayers, we salute one another with a kiss. There is then brought to the president of the brethren bread and a cup of wine mixed with water; and he taking them, gives praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at His hands. And when he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all the people present express their assent by saying Amen. This word Amen answers in the Hebrew language to genoito [so be it]. And when the president has given thanks, and all the people have expressed their assent, those who are called by us deacons give to each of those present to partake of the bread and wine mixed with water over which the thanksgiving was pronounced, and to those who are absent they carry away a portion.
CHAPTER LXVI -- OF THE EUCHARIST.
And this food is called among us Eukaristia [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;" and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood;" and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.
CHAPTER LXVII -- WEEKLY WORSHIP OF THE CHRIS- TIANS.
And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.
Jun 12 08 7:37 AM
Posts: 17181
Member Since: 12/03/06
Jun 12 08 7:48 AM
Hi wanderer1961,
Small groups of committed believers getting together for a Bible Study, singing Praise Songs and having a pot-luck dinner, followed by the breaking of bread and sharing the cup in remembrance of Jesus. The early church gathered together for a communal meal, just as Jesus had gathered with His disciples to eat the Passover meal. (it is the "Lord's Supper" after all, not the Lord's appetizer.)
Amen.. yes we do this in remembrance of His finished work, remembering also that He will not eat again with us until the supper of our great God resumes, after we receive our new bodies ,then we will eat as described in the vision John received ,regarding this memorial supper. And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.Rev 19:17-18
Jun 12 08 8:00 AM
Jun 12 08 8:29 AM
Jun 12 08 8:34 AM
some people thing your a source
Jun 12 08 8:36 AM
Jun 12 08 9:04 AM
For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels
Jun 12 08 9:28 AM
your not an anti Catholic or you cover it up enough that it doesn't bother me
In this article the history of the rite is first traced up to A.D. 200 in documents taken in their chronological order; differences of early and later usage are then discussed; lastly, the meaning of the original rite is examined.
The fourth gospel, written perhaps A.D. 90-100, sublimates the rite, in harmony with its general treatment of the life of Jesus: " I am the living bread which cometh down out of heaven, that a man may eat thereof and not die " (John vi. si). As in 1 Cor. x. the flesh of Christ is contrasted with the manna which saved not the Jews from death, so here the latter ask: " How can this man give us his flesh to eat? " and Jesus answers: " Amen, Amen I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, ye have not life in yourselves. .. . He that eateth' my flesh and drinketh my blood abideth in me and I in him." In an earlier passage, again in reference to the manna, Jesus is called " the bread of God, which cometh down out of heaven, and giveth life unto the world." They ask: " Lord, ever more give us this bread," and he answers: " I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall not hunger, and he that believeth on me shall never thirst." This writer's thought is coloured by the older speculations of Philo, who in metaphor called the Loges the heavenly bread and food, the cupbearer and cup of God; and he seems even to protest against a literal interpretation of the words of institution, since he not only pointedly omits them in his account of the Last Supper, but in v. 63 of this chapter writes: " It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I have spoken unto you are spirit and are life."
The next document in chronological order is the so-called Teaching of the Apostles (A.D. 9o-110). This assigns prayers and rubrics for the celebration of the Eucharist: IX. " s. Now with regard to the Thanksgiving, thus give ye thanks. " 2. First concerning the cup :We give thanks to thee,our Father, for the holy vine' of David thy servant, which thou didst make known to us through Jesus thy servant;2 to thee be the glory for ever. " 3. And concerning the broken bread :We give thanks to thee, our Father, for the life and knowledge which thou didst make known to us through Jesus thy servant; to thee be the glory for ever. " 4. As this broken bread was (once) scattered on the face of the mountains and, gathered together, became one,3 even so may thy Church be gathered together from the ends of the earth into thy kingdom; for thine is the glory and the power through Jesus Christ for ever. ` 5. But let no one eat or drink of your Thanksgiving (Eucharist), but they who have been baptized into the name of the Lord; for concerning this the Lord hath said, Give not that which is holy unto the dogs.4 X. " L Then, after being filled, thus give ye thanks: " 2. We give thanks to thee, holy Father, for thy holy name, which thou hast caused to dwell in our hearts, and for the knowledge and faith and immortality which thou didst make known to us through Jesus Christ thy servant; to thee be the glory for ever. " 3. Thou Almighty Sovereign,didst create all things for thy name's sake, and food and drink thou didst give to men for enjoyment, that they should give thanks unto thee; but to us thou didst of thy grace give spiritual food and drink and life eternal through thy servant. ` 4. Before all things, we give thee thanks that thou art mighty; to thee be the glory for ever. " 5. Remember, Lord, thy church to deliver it from all evil, and to perfect it in thy love, and gather it together from the four winds,' the sanctified, unto thy kingdom, which thou bast prepared for it; for thine is the power and the glory for ever. " 6. Come grace, and pass this world away. Hosanna to the God of David! If any one is holy, let him come. If any one is not, let him repent. Maranatha 8 Amen. " But allow the prophets to give thanks as much as they will." -From a subsequent section, ch. xiv. r, we learn that the Eucharist was on Sunday:" Now when ye are assembled together on the Lord's day of the Lord, break bread and give thanks, having first confessed your transgressions, so that your sacrifice may be pure." The above, like the uninterpolated Lucan account, places the cup first and has no mention of the body and blood of Christ. But in this last and other respects it contrasts with the other synoptic and with the Pauline accounts. The cup is not the blood of Jesus, but the holy vine of David, revealed through Jesus; and the holy vine can but signify the spiritual Israel, the Ecclesia or church or Messianic Kingdom, into which the faithful are to be gathered. The one loaf, as in Paul, symbolizes the unity of the ecclesia, but the cup and bread, given for enjoyment, are symbols at best of the spiritual food and drink of the life eternal given of grace by the Almighty Father through his servant (lit. boy) Jesus. The bread and wine are indeed an offering to God of what is his own, pure because offered in purity of heart; but they are not interpreted of the sacrifice of Jesus' body broken on the cross, or of his blood shed for the remission of sin. It is not, as in Paul, a meal commemorative of Christ's death, nor connected with the Passover, as in the Synoptics. Least of all is it a sacramental eating of the flesh and drinking of the blood of Jesus, a perpetual renewal of kinship, physical and spiritual, with him. The teaching rather breathes the atmosphere of the fourth gospel, which sets the Last Supper before the feast of the Passover (xiii. I), and pointedly omits Christ's institution of the Eucharist, substituting for it the washing of his disciples' feet. The blessing of the Bread and Cup, as an incident in a feast of Christian brotherhood, is all that the Didache has in common with Paul and the Synoptists. The use of the words " after being filled," in x. r, implies that the brethren ate heartily, and that the cup and bread formed no isolated episode. The Baptized alone are admitted to this Supper, and they only after confession
Transubstantiation.-In the primitive age no one asked how Christ was present in the Eucharist, or how the elements became his body and blood . The Eucharist formed part of an agape or love feast until the end of the 2nd century, and in parts of Christendom continued to be so much later . It was, save where animal sacrifices survived, the Christian sacrifice, par excellence, the counterpart for the converted of the sacrificial communions of paganism; and though charged with higher significance than these, it yet reposed on a like background of religious usage and beliefs . But when the Agape on one side and paganism on the other receded into a dim past, owing to the enhanced sacrosanctity of the Eucharist and because of the severe edicts of the emperor Theodosius and his successors, the psychological back-ground fell away, and the Eucharist was left isolated and hanging in the air . Then men began to ask themselves what it meant . Rival schools of thought sprang up, and controversy raged over it, as it had aforetime about the homoousion, or the two natures . Thus the sacrament which was intended to be a bond of peace, became a chief cause of dissension and bloodshed, and was often discussed as if it were a vulgar talisman .
Jun 12 08 9:45 AM
Jun 12 08 9:49 AM
Jun 12 08 9:56 AM
Share This