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Portia11		#81	[-]
Posts: 1876 (07/06/09 10:10 AM) Mod Squad Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I've got some news for you. The REAL Mary doesn't go around appearing to people in window reflections, under bridges, on cheese sandwiches and cheeto's. Such bogus BULL is a LIE of SATAN. And ANYONE, including you, that believes she does is believing in demonic CRAP. Plain and simple. Nobody here believes that Mary appears in cheese sandwiches, window reflections, cheetos, and the like. Now there may be some unbalanced people who do believe that but most of us know better. And we don't have a monopoly on loonies. More importantly, the Church has never come out and approved any of your examples. Some of us believe in Church approved apparitions where there have been numerous conversions to Christ and other miraculous phenonmena taking place. As these are private revelation, we don't have to believe them, and Church approval means only that there is nothing contrary to the faith and good morals in the messages.
Katydid89		#82	[-]
Posts: 2136 (07/06/09 6:13 PM) Catholic sprout Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	cheezit01 wrote: Katydid89 wrote: It is not a lie. Your Fundamentalist buddies have shown nothing but disdain for the Blessed Virgin! A few have even called her a demon!!!! You call that respect??!!!!! My "Fundamentalist buddies" (as you call them) do NOT show any disdain for the REAL Mary. As Scripture says, she was blessed. And EVERY SINGLE ONE of my "Fundamentalist buddies" believes that. What they do NOT believe is the pure outright NONSENSE the Catholic church has done to Mary. As far as demons go, I've got some news for you. The REAL Mary doesn't go around appearing to people in window reflections, under bridges, on cheese sandwiches and cheeto's. Such bogus BULL is a LIE of SATAN. And ANYONE, including you, that believes she does is believing in demonic CRAP. Plain and simple. 1). Sorry, but that's not going to fly with me. The real Mary, as you say it, is the same Mary we Catholics honor and respect! Your friends just make them different to justify insulting her!! So yes, they do show distain for the real Mary. And the Catholic Church does nothing to Mary. 2). I have never believed that Mary appears on cheese sandwiches or any of the other things you mentioned. The Church doesn't believe it either. However, I do believe that she has appeared at Guadalupe, Lourdes, Fatima, Walsingham, and other places. we never come to the kingdom of Heaven but by troubles -Katherine of Aragon to her daughter, Mary
cheezit01		#83	[-]
Posts: 728 (07/06/09 6:17 PM) Much Fondue About Nothing Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Katydid89 wrote: 1). Sorry, but that's not going to fly with me. Oh, gee. Color me surprised.
camabeach		#84	[-]
Posts: 2446 (07/06/09 6:37 PM) Lifes a Beach Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Cheezit, Did Elijah and Moses (dead guys, right) really appear together with Jesus at the Transfiguration? "Not all who wander are lost. JRR Tolkien
cheezit01		#85	[-]
Posts: 729 (07/07/09 3:53 AM) Much Fondue About Nothing Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	camabeach wrote: Did Elijah and Moses (dead guys, right) really appear together with Jesus at the Transfiguration? Sure they did. But if you think that somehow justifies "Mary" allegedly showing up wherever "she" chooses or justifies all the statues of "Mary" and the ridiculous Catholic theme parks like Lourdes, you are simply Biblically illiterate. What absolute, incontrovertible and undeniable proof do you or your church have that proves that these alleged appearances of "Mary" are really Mary?
garee		#86	[-]
Posts: 6120 (07/07/09 4:15 AM) Heretick Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Kneeling before something does not mean you are praying to or worshipping it. If you humble yourself by keeling before an object you are basically giving that object worth. Worship simply means give worth to what ever is in view. Making objects for the purpose of bowing down to them as a "source of faith".......... breaks the second commandment. . Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; Exo 20:4 It does not necessarily mean you believe the object itself is a god, it can point to a false god as a source of faith, that can cause that person to work as a result of the faith it produces, bowing down is one of those works. People used to kneel before kings and queens. Were they worshipping the king and queen? Yes they were worshipping. Some today continue to bow down in humble adoration, as with the Pope who of his mouth, worships a Queen of heaven theology though idols made with human hands, that has all of its roots in paganism, which was passed down through grapevine theology(a succession of men following after the commandments of men) by what some claim came by fathers, kings, and princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: According to God's Holy living word , these men so no evil in prophesying with private revelations which came from their own mouths. Last Edited By: garee 07/07/09 4:20 AM. Edited 1 times.
camabeach		#87	[-]
Posts: 2449 (07/07/09 7:06 AM) Lifes a Beach Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	So if you admit Elijah and Moses - two "dead" guys - could appear with Jesus, then it is within the realm of possibility that Mary, the human being on earth who had the closest relationship with Jesus, could appear. Nothing is impossible with God. Since you have never been to Lourdes, and I have, you really have no place criticizing something you know nothing of. Lourdes has nothing to do with and no relationship whatsover to a "theme park". There are chapels, churches, and basilicas on the property, and the atmosphere is that of reverance for God. What absolute, incontrovertible and undeniable proof do you or your church have that proves that these alleged appearances of "Mary" are really Mary? The Catholic Church looks for plenty of proof and evidence from the witnesses and the effects of the apparitions before it determines whether the apparition is Mary. For example, Bernadette of Lourdes - only 14 years old at the time of the apparition - was grilled countless times by Church and other authorities, and she never changed her story even when she and her family were threatened by jail. There were also healings that took place that were miracles. There were no medical explanations for the healings that took place. So the Church studied the evidence of the miraculous healings as well as the witness of Bernadette, the message of the apparitions, and the effect that it had on others. It took several years for the Church authorities to decide that the apparitions were truly those of Mary, the Mother of God. But to repeat a phrase to you, Cheezit, Garee, and the fool LooseNut. For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. To those who will not believe, no explanation is possible. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed. "Not all who wander are lost. JRR Tolkien
cheezit01		#88	[-]
Posts: 732 (07/07/09 7:56 AM) Much Fondue About Nothing Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I asked "What absolute, incontrovertible and undeniable proof do you or your church have that proves that these alleged appearances of "Mary" are really* Mary?"* And you answer with The Catholic Church looks for plenty of proof and evidence from the witnesses and the effects of the apparitions before it determines whether the apparition is Mary. For example, Bernadette of Lourdes - only 14 years old at the time of the apparition - was grilled countless times by Church and other authorities, and she never changed her story even when she and her family were threatened by jail. There were also healings that took place that were miracles. There were no medical explanations for the healings that took place. So the Church studied the evidence of the miraculous healings as well as the witness of Bernadette, the message of the apparitions, and the effect that it had on others. It took several years for the Church authorities to decide that the apparitions were truly those of Mary, the Mother of God. You are laughable, you know that? "The Catholic Church looks for plenty of proof and evidence from the witnesses..." . Witnesses? How in the world would some person that never laid eyes on the real Mary know if the apparition they saw was Mary?? All the "study" in the world wouldn't prove a thing.
camabeach		#89	[-]
Posts: 2451 (07/07/09 8:20 AM) Lifes a Beach Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. To those who will not believe, no explanation is possible. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed. If Jesus appeared to you, and you were convinced that he did, how would you really know if you never laid eyes on the real Jesus? "Not all who wander are lost. JRR Tolkien
cheezit01		#90	[-]
Posts: 733 (07/07/09 8:41 AM) Much Fondue About Nothing Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	camabeach wrote: For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. To those who will not believe, no explanation is possible. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed. If Jesus appeared to you, and you were convinced that he did, how would you really know if you never laid eyes on the real Jesus? Nice copout. Neither that nor your ridiculous previous post answered the actual question I asked. The reason you can't answer it is because there is no answer. It boils down to this: It's Mary because the Catholic church says* it's Mary*. And that is the ONLY reason YOU believe it because that is ALL you have -- the rather dubious word of your church. You said "To those who will not believe, no explanation is possible". You are right, I stopped believing in fairytales around the age of 6 or 7.
camabeach		#91	[-]
Posts: 2453 (07/07/09 3:29 PM) Lifes a Beach Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	How in the world would some person that never laid eyes on the real Mary know if the apparition they saw was Mary?? How in the world would some person that never laid eyes on the real Jesus know if the apparition they saw was Jesus? One major problem of protestantism in general and fundamentalism in particular is this thing they have inherited from the Enlightenment. Everything asserted needs to be proved to their satisfaction. Also the individual's experience - whether it be of salvation or anything else - is a major part of their belief system. The individual is king. I did it my way. It feels right to me. And so on. Traditional Christianity relies on faith - the faith of our fathers, the faith of our Scriptures, the faith the Jesus taught us. We don't have to be like Thomas - seeing in order to believe. We don't need to see Jesus in order to believe that he was resurrected and seats at the right hand of the Father. We believe in faith given to us by the Holy Spirit that what the Bible says is true, as well as what the Church says is true. Jesus said he would never leave his church, and I believe him. "Not all who wander are lost. JRR Tolkien Last Edited By: camabeach 07/07/09 3:35 PM. Edited 1 times.
garee		#92	[-]
Posts: 6121 (07/07/09 5:14 PM) Heretick Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	The Catholic Church looks for plenty of proof and evidence from the witnesses and the effects of the apparitions before it determines whether the apparition is Mary. Really what about the fact that any apparition (new revelation) would be a violation to the commandment to not add or subtract from the word of God found in His law book? How would that commandment testify as far as plenty of proof and the effects of denying is authority to produce a faith that could please God.? For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen. Rev 22:18 Would this below be the beginning of a new Book, a new chapter called" Lo is Christ" believe..... if you want, despite the fact that God word says says believe not ? Thus sayeth the Lord...God "Paint an image according to the pattern you see, with the signature: Jesus I trust in You. I desire that this image be venerated, first in your chapel and (then) throughout the world." I promise that the soul that will venerate this image "will not perish". I also promise victory over (its) enemies already here on earth, especially at the hour of death. I Myself will defend it as My own glory." "My image already is in your soul. I desire that there be a Feast of Mercy. I want this image, which you will paint with a brush, to be solemnly blessed on the first Sunday after Easter; that Sunday is to be the Feast of Mercy. "I desire that priests proclaim this great mercy of Mine towards souls of sinners. Let the sinner not be afraid to approach Me. The flames of mercy are burning Me- clamoring to be spent; I want to pour them out upon these souls". "Distrust on the part of souls is tearing at My insides. The distrust of a chosen soul causes Me even greater pain; despite My inexhaustible love for them they do not trust in Me. Even My death is not enough for them. Woe to the soul that abuses these (gifts). "I will make this all clear to the Superior by means of the graces which I will grant through this image." Faustina 1:314 I promise that the soul that will venerate this image "will not perish".." Faustina 1:314 Last Edited By: garee 07/07/09 6:47 PM. Edited 1 times.
cheezit01		#93	[-]
Posts: 736 (07/07/09 5:48 PM) Much Fondue About Nothing Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	camabeach wrote: How in the world would some person that never laid eyes on the real Jesus know if the apparition they saw was Jesus? IF He did, and I don't believe he would, I have ZERO doubts that He could make it known without question who He is. One major problem of protestantism in general and fundamentalism in particular is this thing they have inherited from the Enlightenment. Everything asserted needs to be proved to their satisfaction. Also the individual's experience - whether it be of salvation or anything else - is a major part of their belief system. The individual is king. I did it my way. It feels right to me. And so on. That is one of the biggest batches of BULL I've read in a long time. And a couple of things seem absolutely obvious. 1) You make up garbage and lie about fundamentalism as bad or worse than any non Catholic lies about the Catholic church. 2) I showed how your church makes up stupidity and you don't like the fact that you can't prove me wrong. As for the rest of your diatribe, don't lecture me on what Christianity relies on until you actually have ALL the right answers yourself.
camabeach		#94	[-]
Posts: 2455 (07/07/09 8:24 PM) Lifes a Beach Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	IF He did, and I don't believe he would, I have ZERO doubts that He could make it known without question who He is. Mary made it known without question who she was - to the children at Fatima and to Bernadette at Lourdes, to demonstrate two examples. O That is one of the biggest batches of BULL I've read in a long time. And a couple of things seem absolutely obvious. 1) You make up garbage and lie about fundamentalism as bad or worse than any non Catholic lies about the Catholic church. So fundamentalists don't rely on personal, private interpretation to determine what Scripture REALLY means - and disregard other opinions as false doctrine? Like you do, for example? 2) I showed how your church makes up stupidity and you don't like the fact that you can't prove me wrong. Prove you wrong where? I have been reading some books by nonCatholic, Christian authors who don't deny that the Enlightenment profoundly influenced Protestantism by promoting reason, rationality, and individualism at the expense of faith. In fact, Calvin's writings rely heavily in rationalism in order to reinterpret the Bible and teach doctrines that were contrary to what the Catholic Church teaches. As for the rest of your diatribe, don't lecture me on what Christianity relies on until you actually have ALL the right answers yourself. I don't have all the answers; I am a work in progress. But fortunately I know where to find all the right answers "Not all who wander are lost. JRR Tolkien
garee		#95	[-]
Posts: 6128 (07/07/09 9:24 PM) Heretick Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	. But fortunately I know where to find all the right answers From private new revelations, coming from private apparitions ?
cheezit01		#96	[-]
Posts: 737 (07/08/09 3:55 AM) Much Fondue About Nothing Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Mary made it known without question who she was - to the children at Fatima and to Bernadette at Lourdes, to demonstrate two examples. So says your church. So fundamentalists don't rely on personal, private interpretation to determine what Scripture REALLY means - and disregard other opinions as false doctrine? Like you do, for example? Now you've changed the subject. Typical. What I quoted was what I was talking about. Prove you wrong where? That's the point. You HAVEN'T. And you CAN'T. I originally asked you "What absolute, incontrovertible and undeniable proof do you or your church have that proves that these alleged appearances of "Mary" are really* Mary?".* The best you can come up with is some off the wall claim about how "The Catholic Church looks for plenty of proof and evidence from the witnesses and the effects of the apparitions before it determines whether the apparition is Mary". In response to that, I said "Witnesses? How in the world would some person that never laid eyes on the real Mary know if the apparition they saw was Mary?? All the "study" in the world wouldn't prove a thing". You have yet to answer that question because you know that neither you nor your church can answer it. So the best you can do is to change the subject. I don't have all the answers; I am a work in progress. But fortunately I know where to find all the right answers I don't have all the answers either, but the difference between you and me is that I don't rely on ghosts and goblins that supposedly appear to kids, nor in the whims of some priests and their "tradition".
garee		#97	[-]
Posts: 6129 (07/08/09 5:12 AM) Heretick Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	In response to that, I said "Witnesses? How in the world would some person that never laid eyes on the real Mary know if the apparition they saw was Mary?? All the "study" in the world wouldn't prove a thing". Good point. Many people believe Mary was an Ethoipian Jew which could of made her black, but what she looks like has nothing to do with the power/authority they attribute to her anyways. The fact that Catholics claim she is bringing new revelations that violate the law of God found in the last book of His law(Revelations) is what the focus I believe should be. As far as this Queen of heaven theology that comes from thier own mouth, scripture is cystal clear, no such form of goverment exists, as the proper form of His govermment is found in 1 Corinintians 11. In that chapter, as it is written you will find not even a hint of a mention of Queens, or a Mother of Mercy as having any authority that would concern the body of Christ as that which would add to the law of God, which Catholics would call the fullness of faith or the whole deposit of faith. The church (new creation) was created for the Spirit of Christ ,our husband , not the Spirit of Christ for the church,the bride, that kind of criterion would only duplicate the fall when woman usurped the authority of the man, for another authority that states... did God really say? Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.1Co 11:9 Last Edited By: garee 07/08/09 5:15 AM. Edited 1 times.
camabeach		#98	[-]
Posts: 2456 (07/08/09 5:25 AM) Lifes a Beach Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	The fact that Catholics claim she is bringing new revelations that violate the law of God found in the last book of His law(Revelations) is what the focus I believe should be. Garee, the fact is that Catholics do not claim she is bringing new revelations. In fact, if a Marian apparition claimed a new revelation, that would be a dead giveaway that the apparition was false. Prove you wrong where? That's the point. You HAVEN'T. And you CAN'T. I originally asked you "What absolute, incontrovertible and undeniable proof do you or your church have that proves that these alleged appearances of "Mary" are really Mary?". What absolute, incontrovertible, and undeniable proof do you or your church have that proves that Scripture is really the Word of God? At some point, you have to take a leap of faith, right? Since there were not such things as video cameras at the time of Fatima and Lourdes that would provide the proof that you require, the Catholic Church has had to rely on other things to determine whether or not the apparitions were real. After through investigations, there are a few apparitions that the Church has determined were real. I don't have all the answers either, but the difference between you and me is that I don't rely on ghosts and goblins that supposedly appear to kids, nor in the whims of some priests and their "tradition". In what way do you believe that I rely on ghosts and goblins? BTW - you rely on your own version of Protestant tradition to tell you truths. But Protestants, unlike Catholics, are not upfront about the fact that they rely on Protestant traditions for interpretation, just like Catholics rely on Catholic tradition for interpretation. "Not all who wander are lost. JRR Tolkien
garee		#99	[-]
Posts: 6130 (07/08/09 7:59 AM) Heretick Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Garee, the fact is that Catholics do not claim she is bringing new revelations. In fact, if a Marian apparition claimed a new revelation, that would be a dead giveaway that the apparition was false. If the apparition was not a new revelation, when did it first take place, seeing it is only the exact repeat, word for word of an existing revelation, knowing that anything that is not of faith is sin ? When an New testament phase is used containing the same words as in the Old Testament, by another prophet , is this a new revelation or was this prophet not moved by the Holy Spirit and the prophet was merely reciting and old testament verse, of his own accord, from his own mouth? 2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. Where these apparition which you consider an authority, moved into the being of faith, by which we can beleive God, as a result of the fact that God breathed them as new revelations, or like the queen of heaven, it came from thier own mouths, which roots were established in paganism? Last Edited By: garee 07/08/09 8:01 AM. Edited 1 times.
cheezit01		#100	[-]
Posts: 742 (07/09/09 5:11 AM) Much Fondue About Nothing Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	camabeach wrote: What absolute, incontrovertible, and undeniable proof do you or your church have that proves that Scripture is really the Word of God? Changing the subject again, I see. Since there were not such things as video cameras at the time of Fatima and Lourdes that would provide the proof that you require, the Catholic Church has had to rely on other things to determine whether or not the apparitions were real. After through investigations, there are a few apparitions that the Church has determined were real. Yes, and the "rely on other things" was it's really Mary because we say it is. In what way do you believe that I rely on ghosts and goblins? Well, who spent thousands of dollars to travel half way around the world to a "shrine" built to someone who you don't worship in order to get healed by that same person you don't worship? You should have stayed home and saved the money you wasted for all the good it did you..

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